(01:49:01 ®) Wraith's tyme says to everyone: greetings and welcome to Discussion Night, our new night and time and our new Guide for Discussion Night is Hobbes. Thank You again Sir for time and efforts here at The Edge.

to all in attendance welcome again and please keep Yyour greetings and comments to PM unless they are Discussion related, i hope Yyou will stay for the Discussion and enjoy it.

(01:49:48) Hobbes says to everyone: Shall we begin?

(01:50:01) toy (f) says to Hobbes: yes please Sir......

(01:50:14 ®) Wraith's tyme says to Hobbes: yes Sir *s*

(01:50:20) Hobbes says to everyone: Welcome to the first discussion night at The Edge. For any who do not know me, my name is Hobbes and I will, for better or worse, be serving as the moderator of the discussion this evening.

(01:50:47) Hobbes says to everyone: As the evening is meant to be a discussion rather than a lecture, audience participation is key. Consequently, I will be not merely encouraging comments but specifically inviting them.. And yes, andi that does mean I will be calling on people by name so you’d best be attentive…~g~…

(01:51:15) Hobbes says to everyone: In order to assure our discussion goes smoothly, I would ask a few things of you. First, during the discussion period I would ask that greetings, flames, sceneing and all various and sundry comments be kept in pm in order to avoid an endless parade of disjointed prose.

(01:51:41) Hobbes says to everyone: Second, and just as important or perhaps more so, please remember that this is your discussion group; my task is to try to encourage the exchange of ideas. Please feel free to share your thoughts and make this evening a success.

(01:52:01 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Hobbes: ~glances up...blinks~.....idinnadoit!

(01:52:11) Hobbes says to everyone: Finally, you’re here not merely to talk with one another but to have fun. I’ll do my best to make sure it’s a good experience all around.

(01:52:28) Hobbes says to andrea gail: yes, you did. I saw you...~g~...

(01:52:51 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Hobbes: ~points to....somebody else~

(01:52:53) Hobbes says to everyone: Our topic for discussion this evening is “What is BDSM?” The foundation for our discussion was provided by tyme on Thursday evening and her overview of some of the basic practices and tenets that make up what is generally known as BDSM.

(01:53:18) Hobbes says to everyone: In the course of her presentation, tyme provided a number of definitions. Having common definitions is important – it gets us all speaking the same language if you will. From my perspective, though, definitions have an inherent weakness.

(01:53:33) Neptune says to andrea gail: hey don’t point that finger my way *lol*

(01:53:49) Hobbes says to everyone: A cat may be defined as a small predatory carnivorous species of crepuscular mammal that is valued by humans for its companionship and its ability to hunt vermin, snakes, scorpions and other unwanted household pests…but that doesn’t really tell us anything about a cat, does it? What we know about cats, what we think about cats, springs from experience…from how a cat feels when we touch it…how it sounds when it purrs…the roughness of its tongue.

(01:54:02 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Neptune: well...You shouldn't do such things Sir...*nods*

(01:54:23) Hobbes says to everyone: We define ‘cat’ by our understanding... our perception... our experience with the little hairballs. Similarly, we know from Thursday that BDSM is a broad term that describes a spectrum of consensual activity – sometimes sexual - between partners having complimentary but unequal roles. But that definition brings us to our starting question – what does BDSM mean to you? What is your understanding….your perception…your experience?

(01:55:09) Hobbes says to everyone: Let’s start our discussion with a simple question: what, if anything, separates BDSM from simple heterosexual or homosexual rough sex? Why is it ‘BDSM’? Or are they the same things expressed in different words?

(01:55:15 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to everyone: Some cats have nine tails..*Nods*

(01:55:21 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to everyone: purrrrrrrrssssss rough tongue...*S*

(01:55:51) Hobbes says to andrea gail: I knew you'd like the rough tongue...care to comment on the question?

(01:56:33 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Hobbes: well that's a given...who wouldn't like the rough tongue?....*S*

(01:57:09) warm woman says to Hobbes: I think it's tough to define that it simply because it's different to different people. I know my perceptions of BDSM is very different from others yet because there are no rules governing what it, I think he has to be left to the people involved to determine what it means to them

(01:57:57 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to everyone: BDSM has much more structure and is focused on the safety aspects of being *rough*..where as run of the mill hetero/homo rough sex has the possibility of getting out of control

(01:58:03 Signon) Undertaker enters The Edge

(01:58:31 ®) Wraith's tyme says to Hobbes: well one difference to me at least is the action itself, i could be in a relationship where i ask for *rough sex* say to be taken, or maybe just to be spanked, but, that isn't as exciting to me as if the One i am with, plans the act, executes it, knowing i do want it maybe, but not asking me, just knowing me and taking what He/She wants

(01:58:55) Hobbes says to Wraith: ...so it's SSC that makes it different?...

(01:59:00) Undertaker says to everyone: Greetings all

(01:59:01 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Wraith: or the fact that it's not going to ever get out of control is what makes a big difference...*nods*

(01:59:04) uncollared mind~ says to Hobbes: i agree with ww in that it has to be defined by the couple (or group) involved at the time...but i'd go farther and say that BDSM at it's core requires a defined and purposeful exchange of power from one individual to the other....that this exchange of power is both desired and satiating to the two involved, Sir.

(02:00:02) Hobbes says to uncollared mind~: so... it's the power exchange then that separates BDSM from simple rough sex?...

(02:00:39 Signon) Asterix enters The Edge

(02:00:44 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Hobbes: I believe so yes... the simple act itself is basically the same.. vanillas can plan out what they wish to do in any given sexual act...though it almost always includes the sex....in BDSM...I can Dom a girl and not have sex with her... as in a flogging on a cross for instance

(02:01:08) warm woman says to everyone: to some it's about strict protocol and decorum -- for others it's about how one feels when placed in a certain situation --

(02:01:16 Signoff) Undertaker leaves The Edge

(02:01:49) Asterix says to everyone: May I ?

(02:01:50) Hobbes says to Wraith: I agree with you...there is a distinction to be drawn because ‘rough sex’ is, in fact, sex…while a BDSM session may not include penetration or other overt sexual behavior..

(02:01:56 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to everyone: guess He didn't....lol

(02:02:17 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Asterix: Jump right in

(02:02:17) *Badboy* {c} says to everyone: it is what it is to those involved...I can have rough sex with someone don't make it BDSM...but if we're both into that kind of thing...and we know what we're wanting to do it can be BDSM...even if we did the same exact things...

(02:02:22) toy (f) says to Wraith: i agree with you Sir..... sex is not a necessary component of BDSM.....

(02:02:30) uncollared mind~ says to Hobbes: i believe so. SSC is a very basic outline for how the power ought to be exchanged. RACK is an almost contractual set up for each scene....to me the defining expression is the purposeful exchange of power between one who will Top (terms and names included) and one who will bottom (same)

(02:02:38) Neptune says to andrea gail: scared off the grim reaper *lol* impressive

(02:02:45) warm woman says to Hobbes: a Dom may not have physical sex with the sub woman but I still find that the male Dom does sexual things with the female sub -- i.e., touching her sexually -- does that not count as sex?

(02:02:58) Hobbes says to *Badboy* {c}: hen it's not the act but whether the participants label it BDSM that makes the difference?

(02:03:11) uncollared mind~ says to Wraith: i also agree with you Sir.

(02:03:11 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Neptune: aren't i just?....*w*

(02:03:57) Asterix says to everyone: BDSM isn't one thing ... its .. B/D ... and S/M . two different topics right there .. 'vanillia' relationships normally don't involve huge amounts of either ... maybe a little to add kink

(02:04:05 Signon) Brandon enters The Edge

(02:04:09) Brandon says to everyone: evening Aall

(02:04:13 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to *Badboy* {c}: so what makes it so?

(02:04:25) Neptune says to warm woman: sex doesn't even have to be physical at all

(02:04:28) warm woman says to Wraith: to me, a completely non sexual BDSM session would be like a spanking over my skirt or pants -- where no nudity is present and no one has an orgasm *chuckles*

(02:04:37) Asterix says to everyone: and D.s oops on top of that ~g~

(02:04:53 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to warm woman: In the Clintonesque version of what constitutes a sexual act it may not....but if a Dominants goal is to make the submissive *turned on*..checking to see... i.e. touching is involved yes

(02:04:56) *Badboy* {c} says to Hobbes: well not necessarily labeled...people can enjoy BDSM without knowing what it is really...but they do know they're doing something....something...

(02:04:57) warm woman says to Neptune: too true

(02:04:58) Hobbes says to Asterix: I don't necessarily disagree...but they tend to be lumped together...

(02:05:06) warm woman says to Brandon: welcome Sir *s8

(02:05:27 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Hobbes: that's my question...if you do the same things what makes it BDSM....just because you both say that's what it is?

(02:06:06) warm woman says to Wraith: but You don't consider that "touching to check" as a sexual thing?

(02:06:27) Hobbes says to andrea gail: ...my own assessment is no... that the defining difference that makes it BDSM is - much as um pointed out - the complimentary but unequal roles...

(02:07:19) Hobbes says to everyone: I have a follow up question....

(02:07:32 ®) Wraith's tyme says to Hobbes: i would agree Sir, the roles are for me what make it, i had plenty of *asked for* spankings, mean little to nothing, when compared to being *handled* by One

(02:07:43 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to warm woman: Hmmm... no really no...as having sex with the submissive is not the goal. merely to make sure whatever Your doing to them is actually garnering the wanted result...checking the oil in a car does not make Me driving it

(02:08:03) Hobbes says to everyone: some people call BDSM a 'lifestyle'...is it?...

(02:08:08) *Badboy* {c} says to andrea gail: in My example...with My ex...or "the bitch" as we all know her...sure we did some things...bondage...spank or bite here or there...but trust Me...it was not a BDSM relationship...which I was fine with but it just wasn’t...

(02:08:33) warm woman says to Wraith: yes but if You're checking to see if she's wet and aroused, clearly You are driving for her to have an orgasm -- to me that is inherently sexual

(02:09:21) toy (f) says to warm woman: who said he wanted her to have an orgasm?..... he might just want her to get excited....and then deprive her of the orgasm..

(02:09:26) *Badboy* {c} says to Hobbes: it can be sure...but it also doesn't have to be...

(02:09:37) warm woman says to Hobbes: I prefer to call it a choice-- I know it's a serious lifestyle for some but it's an addition for me

(02:10:00) Hobbes says to *Badboy* {c}: so the answer is maybe?...or sometimes?...

(02:10:27) warm woman says to toy (f): and controlling her orgasm is not sexual either?

(02:10:39 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to everyone: It can be considered a lifestyle from the service end of it... sex aside...My subbie does things for Me... because it pleases Me ..and her... to do them... with the understanding that it's BDSM related...I couldn't beg hard enough to get My ex wife to do anything in My vanilla relationship...so I guess it's really a mindset that makes it a lifestyle

(02:10:45) toy (f) says to warm woman: no ... it's not sexual..... it's... controlling....

(02:10:46) uncollared mind~ says to everyone: listens to answers regarding the second question....also curious to see what people think...

(02:11:10) Hobbes says to everyone: Can BDSM be a ‘lifestyle’ given the wide variety of practices that fall under that rubric? Isn’t the ‘lifestyle’ argument just a way to offer a self-defined and self-serving social classification that lets a 24/7 couple say... hey, we’re not just perverts….it’s a friggin’ LIFESTYLE…

(02:11:18) *Badboy* {c} says to Hobbes: sometimes *S* there are plenty that live it...live the lifestyle....but there are then those that use it as a way to get away from "life" for a while...

(02:11:31 ®) tyme< Wraith's tyme says to warm woman: no, it is simply control, at least to me and most i know.... it is not *sex* though i would say it is sensual

(02:11:33 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to *Badboy* {c}: so what makes it different?....lol

(02:11:39 Signon) Havoc enters The Edge

(02:12:03) Asterix says to Hobbes: I don’t think it is an 'it' ..... To Me that’s part of the problem ... it covers a way too broad a set of things to be one definition. I for one, am not a Sadist or Masochist ... to Me it is as other have said .. control ...

(02:12:08) warm woman says to toy (f): it's controlling sex *s*

(02:13:00) Asterix says to warm woman: Its not JUST controlling sex ... It can control many other things .. depending on the two's relationship

(02:13:03 ® Signon) ‡ dark muse ‡ enters The Edge

(02:13:14) Hobbes says to Asterix: ..so you suggest that BDSM isn't capable of definition or is actually a meaningless term?...

(02:13:23) warm woman says to Asterix: sorry was referring to controlling orgasm

(02:13:48) Hobbes says to uncollared mind~: lifestyle or no?...

(02:13:50)

Neptune says to ‡ dark muse ‡: *s* evening lovely muse

(02:13:52) Asterix says to Hobbes: I suggest its a very vague term ... and is different things for different people

(02:14:21) *Badboy* {c} says to andrea gail: makes what different? it being a lifestyle or not? *shrugs* I've never lived it as a lifestyle...online I do...but haven't had that chance r/t...but I have had experiences r/t...

(02:14:23 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Asterix: It is a catch all term that covers all that Wwe do...like the word government

(02:14:28) uncollared mind~ says to Hobbes: that i think is a good point to make. to draw some normalcy to it. but then...for arguments sake...who calls a monogamous, middle class 2.5 kid family a "lifestyle"? no one. so in a way it's almost a negative prop for what i consider a positive way of interacting with another person. a very tight and positive BDSM relationship is SO good for both involved. there are, literally, no barriers between them. or if there are, they are known by both....that should be upheld as a social standard not seen as something on the fringes of society. So in the end, to call it "lifestyle" depends on the two involved. there is no way to create a set of rules that all in the BDSM world will follow...so to call it a "lifestyle" is almost confusing at best.

(02:14:34 ®) Wraith's tyme says to Hobbes: i think there is a difference between *being in the lifestyle* (attending groups, bedroom activities, perhaps other things related are going on a regular basis, scheduled into my life, i would say i am in the lifestyle) and 24/7 or TPE, which i do not currently call my relationship with any Dom

(02:14:47) Asterix says to warm woman: Ah OK

(02:15:16 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Havoc: welcome back Sir...*S*

(02:15:26 ®) ‡ dark muse ‡ says to everyone: *slips in , waving quietly to E/everyone*

(02:15:32) Asterix says to Wraith: Then one would ask, what is the common thread ?

(02:15:35) Hobbes says to Asterix: ..so it's a subjective rather than objective term... it's whatever someone chooses it to mean...

(02:15:40 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to *Badboy* {c}: that's true....but then there are those that use it to escape but would like to be living it ... *nods*

(02:15:50 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to ‡ dark muse ‡: welcome back luv...*hugs*

(02:15:58 Signon) ~angel~ enters The Edge

(02:16:03) Havoc says to andrea gail: thanks ~winks~

(02:16:26 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Asterix: I suppose it would be the control.. in all BDSM scenes there is control... no matter what the people involved are doing

(02:16:27) Hobbes says to uncollared mind~: ..so...it is termed a 'lifestyle' to give it the aura of normalcy...

(02:16:57) Asterix says to Hobbes: Yes ,,, but I see Wraith's point about it being an umbrella so to speak ..

(02:17:24) *Badboy* {c} says to andrea gail: *nodding* yes surely... I'm sure there are many...

(02:17:38) warm woman says to Hobbes: I think it's termed a lifestyle because it is outside societal norms -- just as they call homosexuality an "alternative lifestyle" so they call BDSM such

(02:18:00) Hobbes says to andrea gail: andi, your bring up an interesting point as well...

(02:18:20) uncollared mind~ says to Hobbes: i think so...to try and draw dissimilar people together into a collective. calling it a religion would be WAY too naughty for just about anyone to accept. winks.

(02:18:32) Hobbes says to andrea gail: Let’s talk for a second about BDSM and perception. Some people embrace BDSM as an option, as an occasional component of their sexual play. For others, it’s a preferred activity; all things being equal, engaging in bondage or spanking or some other kink with their partner makes them happiest. Finally, there are those who find their pleasure in BDSM practices exclusively, whether it’s 24/7 or the sole outlet for sexual intimacy. People in chat rooms spend a lot of time talking about these groups, debating whether a particular level of commitment or activity separates the ‘real’ BDSM devotee from the poseur. Does it matter? Should it?

(02:19:19) Hobbes says to uncollared mind~: First Church of St. Andrew's Cross?...~g~..

(02:19:31) Asterix says to Hobbes: There

(02:19:31 ®) tyme< Wraith's tyme says to Hobbes: i don't think so, no

(02:19:47 Signon) Ranger enters The Edge

(02:19:48 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to everyone: I don't think it should matter if your hardcore or a dabbler... it's all the same means to an end

(02:20:04 ®) ~andrea gail~ slips over, curling up on the overstuffed pillow by ~angel~ and says: hiya luv...*hugs*

(02:20:11) warm woman says to tyme: and yet it's well known that people who are into this "for real" can often be snobbish to those who are only able to dabble in an online setting

(02:20:33) *Badboy* {c} says to everyone: I'd say it doesn't matter if you do things 24/7 or just once a month....it's still "real"...

(02:20:53 Signon) Smooth Edge enters The Edge

(02:20:57) Asterix says to Hobbes: There’s nothing wrong with any of those scenarios ... the question would be perhaps .. at what point is it a kink , once in a while, and at what point is it a more conscious decision to ... make a habit out of .. for lack of a better term

(02:20:57) uncollared mind~ says to Hobbes: hey Sir....if everyone was honest about their desires etc. it might be better than what's going on our there now religion wise. LOL

(02:21:12 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to warm woman: some are yes... because after we take off the leather and put down the flogger...we are all still just human...with all the quirks intact

(02:21:15) Hobbes says to warm woman: do you think that snobbishness drives people away sometimes?...

(02:21:21 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to uncollared mind~: lol

(02:21:28) uncollared mind~ says to everyone: in short: Different strokes for different folks. LOL

(02:21:31) *Badboy* {c} says to warm woman: yea people who are snobbish...are...snobbish...if they are "real" or not...

(02:21:43 ®) Wraith's tyme says to warm woman: there are snob in every facet of life as far as i know...

(02:21:58) warm woman says to Hobbes: my local group is actually quite intolerant of people who have had online experiences -- I soon discovered when I'd go to parties and munches that I had to keep quiet about my online activities because i got odd looks from the other members -- one man completely discounted anything I've ever done online as false and of no value -- that hurt! considering that I felt I had learned a lot about the mental and emotional aspects of BDSM through my online experiences -- it was as if he was completely discounting my development

(02:21:59) ~angel~ says to *Badboy* {c}: I agree with you on that, just because one persons dynamic doesn’t fit another’s...doesn’t make it any less real....

(02:22:06 ®) Wraith's tyme says to *Badboy* {c}: smiles, agreeing

(02:22:18 Signoff) Ranger leaves The Edge

(02:22:29) *Badboy* {c} says to tyme: *nods* exactly

(02:22:39 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Hobbes: perhaps it shouldn't but it does

(02:23:01) Hobbes says to Wraith: ..do you think warm woman's experience unique?...or is what she describes widespread?...

(02:23:22) Hobbes says to andrea gail: why does it, andi?...

(02:24:09) *Badboy* {c} says to warm woman: there are many people that still think the "internet" is a new thing...a fad... *shrugs* they just haven't joined the party...they grew up without it and want nothing to do with it...

(02:24:35 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Hobbes: When I started attending r/t groups I was advised to keep the online... online... which I did because I was new and knew no better...now however I think it's the wrong attitude to take...many come from online to realtime and it's comparable to a baseball team turning their nose up at their farm team

(02:25:20) Hobbes says to Wraith: ...Excellent analysis...~s~...it's where the recruits come from...

(02:26:00) Hobbes says to Wraith: ..do you see that changing?...or is it going to be an ongoing issue?...how do we change it?...

(02:26:00) uncollared mind~ says to Wraith: and thank GOD the online people have a place to go to unlearn some of the negative practices that can be both scary and unhealthy!

(02:26:10 Signon) Nathan enters The Edge

(02:26:25) warm woman says to *Badboy* {c}: but it's not just a gap between the netters and the non netters -- I think it's because these people wonder how you can truly experience BDSM if you've never actually been flogged or spanked or caned? and I do see their point of view but -- there is more to BDSM than merely flogging and spanking and caning -- I think the mental and emotional aspects are equally as important and I believe my development in that arena has been learned from my online -- I did push myself to go to parties so I could gain experience in sensation play so I'd know what I actually did like or not like -- that has been valuable as well

(02:26:25 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Hobbes: exactly… also tyme and I exist in both these worlds and have fun in each...I don't think there should be such a hard distinction between the two

(02:26:44 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Hobbes: but the ones that do not "dabble" r/t are not considered to be "real"....v/t only is what some have and....*shrugs*....it's their only option...whether as a means of escape from their r/t or as a means of fulfillment....it's what they have and i think ww is right...it's not considered "real" by a lot of those that are r/t....

(02:27:05 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Hobbes: I think only time will change it... it's always been a bear to try and change the way others see things

(02:27:54) Hobbes says to andrea gail: ...I agree...and so do we conclude that there is a set of subgroups almost...rt BDSM and vt BDSM?...

(02:28:39) *Badboy* {c} says to warm woman: and to that I'd say...with what little r/t experience I've had...I still get more from the mental aspect of it than anything...and that mental part can happen either place...

(02:29:00 ®) Wraith's tyme says to warm woman: well there is a huge difference between being flogged for real and flogged in an online scene, that mean the online scene physically didn't feel it and honestly can't say..... they like to be flogged or they don't like to be flogged in the flesh, but there is nothing wrong with saying, i like this or that, it turns me on online so when i can, if i decide to, i would like to try it in the flesh

(02:29:12) Asterix says to Hobbes: I agree with warm woman ... my only r/t BDSM relationship was with one I met here . v/t .. There can be a lot of control on here .. emotionally ... exchanged

(02:29:14) Hobbes says to Wraith: Let 'em throw out something else for your consideration...

(02:29:31 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Hobbes: i cannot say.......it appears so from what Wraith and ww are saying...i haven't experienced enough r/t to be able to judge that or have a strong opinion...it's just something that is felt even here at times with those that are r/t

(02:29:38) warm woman says to *Badboy* {c}: exactly

(02:29:42) Hobbes says to Wraith: It’s argued that there is an element of power play involved in traditional relationships and the workplace that has a lot in common with BDSM. There’s also an opposite view that holds that BDSM amounts to anti-traditionalism, that it rejects gender roles and social constraints to encourage sexual freedom, openness and honesty about feelings and desires. Is BDSM a natural outgrowth of our traditional roles, the end result of dominance and submission being found in all social relationships? Or is it something more, something fundamentally different?

(02:30:30) *Badboy* {c} says to andrea gail: it might not be considered real by them....but is it? I'd say yes...online only is still very powerful....but many choose not to even try it or to try to understand it...

(02:30:46) warm woman says to tyme: that is true -- and I discovered that once I had experiences such things r/t, made my online experience much more rich because now I had real experiences to associate with the words on the screen and whew! it made the sessions much more intense!

(02:31:09) Hobbes says to *Badboy* {c}: I agree...the emotional content is powerful... even online...

(02:31:32 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Hobbes: Hmmmm... tough question...having lived in both..*lifestyles*..I think BDSM may actually be an evolution of behavior...what with the respect and communication alone involved in this...so I guess I would have to say... it's fundamentally different

(02:31:47) ~angel~ says to andrea gail: and in that same vein....there are some rt that consider my submission not real, because the dom I serve is not my primary partner....but you are also right about how they do react to some who come from vt....to me its a do what you are able to do within the boundaries of your relationships...emotions are no less real if the effort is put forth on either realm

(02:32:52) Asterix says to Hobbes: I would say in the workplace a power play often in unintentional or unwanted ... there is no exchange ... In a perfect situation there maybe some concept of if you do what I tell you , then you'll make more money .. In BDSM it is consensual .. it should be always be an exchange ...

(02:33:01 ®) Wraith's tyme says to warm woman: and that is all i see as the difference, not that one is better for being rt or less for being vt.......they are both real people doing what they want to explore, being in two different worlds doesn't make one less meaningful than the other, only different.... i think

(02:33:03) Hobbes says to ~angel~: The rt/vt debate is a real point of contention, isn't it?...and who is anyone to judge?...

(02:33:26 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to ~angel~: Yes BDSM has it's fringe elements just as any other type of group

(02:34:27) *Badboy* {c} says to Hobbes: that's many people's problem...judging...I say do what you want...what the hell do I care if it doesn't involve Me?

(02:34:54) warm woman says to tyme: I agree

(02:34:58 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to ~angel~: to say that your submission is different simply because your not submitting to your *real* Dom... is splitting hairs

(02:35:11) Hobbes says to Asterix: The underlying theme is that we run into hierarchical structure in everything we do...the question would be whether BDSM is a reflection of the non-BDSM world... perhaps, as Wraith suggested, somewhat evolved...

(02:36:02) Smooth Edge says to Hobbes: Or somewhat ratcheted up.

(02:36:26) ~angel~ says to Hobbes: it can be, yes...we can just hope that those who discovered this thru vt... remember it if they move to rt... that and -grins- for a "non-judgmental" group....they are ...again in both....because we are all human

(02:36:27) Hobbes says to uncollared mind~: One last question, as our time runs short... and I'll direct it to you, although anyone is welcome to respond...

(02:36:47) Hobbes says to uncollared mind~: A common claim made is that D/s relationships by their very nature achieve a higher plane of commitment or enlightenment than traditional vanilla relationships. Others argue that a relationship is a relationship; a good relationship is a good one and features open communication and intimacy while a bad relationship is a bad one, whether BDSM or traditional. Is there really something magical about BDSM or is that just self-congratulatory noise?

(02:36:50) uncollared mind~ says to Hobbes: listens

(02:37:05 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to ~angel~: good point ....*nods*

(02:37:28 Signon) CanadianMale enters The Edge

(02:37:33) ~angel~ says to Wraith: no...its said that I’m 'playing' and no power exchange or relationship can be real....because R isn’t a dom.....totally different than saying andi and I and tyme all submit differently

(02:37:36) CanadianMale says to everyone: evening everyone

(02:37:52 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Hobbes: It's magic.. it's the pixie dust of relationships...just the openness of it alone makes it magical

(02:38:41) Hobbes says to Wraith: It's argued by some that the nature of the activities requires a greater degree of communication and trust...

(02:38:47 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to ~angel~: that surprises me...you'd think they'd be the least judgmental ...lol

(02:38:48) *Badboy* {c} says to Wraith: but can't a vanilla relationship be just as open?

(02:39:19) Asterix says to Hobbes: I don’t agree ,... its just a different kind of relationship

(02:39:32 ®) Wraith's tyme says to Hobbes: i see it as very different for me.... perhaps not for all, but my relationship with Wraith and all other Dom/mes i have been lucky to be with, it is very different from my marriage relationship

(02:39:41) Havoc says to Hobbes: that's difficult because a lot of those that find the magic in BDSM come from vanilla relationships that were not so good

(02:39:55) warm woman says to Hobbes: It's true I believe a good BDSM relationship can be the ultimate relationship but what I firmly believe is that it is still first and foremost a relationship -- BDSM shouldn't give people license to forget about basic relationship skills which, from my experience, it seems many people feel they can skip the niceties

(02:40:00) ~angel~ says to andrea gail: nope..-laughs-...that I think stems from the ...'my way is the true way and yall are just playin' mindsets that you come across....and you can run into that vt also

(02:40:12 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to ~angel~: your a submissive... no matter where you are or who your with when you offer your submission that is what you are...I can have a girl beg Me to flog her and offer to submit to Me for that particular scene... doesn't make Me her Master... only the lucky fuck who gets to Dom her for a time...maybe that's where the confusion arises... the difference in terms between Dominant...and Master

(02:40:13) ~angel~ says to andrea gail: aka 'the kneel bitch' syndrome -l-

(02:40:26) ~angel~ says to *Badboy* {c}: It absolutely can

(02:40:31 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to *Badboy* {c}: but they very rarely are....and there's not as much trust

(02:40:34) uncollared mind~ says to Hobbes: oooh! saved the best for last eh Sir? well...normally i'd think about that for a bit but on the fly i would say that ...to my mind... what seems to be "magical" about a BDSM relationship is that it is stepped into very deliberately and a LOT of time and effort is spent laying the "foundation" for what is to come. communication, connection, commitment, all these and more are discussed, tried, altered and eventually made into a well oiled machine (for lack of a better analogy)....this CAN and does exist in the 'nilla world, but i think it is so rare that it is overlooked as bland perhaps. i'm not even certain that many BDSM connections fall into the category of "relationship" as i've defined it here but on the whole i'd say any connection of souls that results in a depth of connection that my view of BDSM requires whether it's 'nilla or not is "magical", Sir.

(02:40:35 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to *Badboy* {c}: or respect

(02:40:41 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to *Badboy* {c}: they can be yes... but seldom are in My experience

(02:40:50) Hobbes says to tyme: ..what has made it different, tyme?...

(02:41:30) *Badboy* {c} says to ~angel~: well Me not having either ever makes Me wonder how possible it really is *L*

(02:41:44 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to ~angel~: we run into it a lot here..*nods*

(02:41:56 ®) ‡ dark muse ‡ says to uncollared mind~: very well said ..*smiles*

(02:41:56 ®) Wraith's tyme says to warm woman: and all my experiences have shown me exactly the opposite, all the details, concerns, negotiations of the bdsm relationship are part of what attracts me to the BDSM relationship

(02:42:19) Hobbes says to uncollared mind~: I agree...well-considered and well-spoken...~s~...

(02:42:37) *Badboy* {c} says to andrea gail: *shrugs* how many failed BDSM relationships do you hear about? know about? not many cuz you just wouldn't hear about it...we know about the vanilla ones cuz we see it every day...maybe it's rare no matter what

(02:42:40) uncollared mind~ says to ‡ dark muse ‡: thank you hun. smiles

(02:42:55 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Wraith: get outta my head!....lol

(02:42:56) toy (f) says to uncollared mind~: wonderfully put.... - s -

(02:43:18) Hobbes says to *Badboy* {c}: Isn't what you describe the 'velcro collar' syndrome...

(02:43:21) ~angel~ says to Wraith: s- you see the point of what I am...a submissive....not all do...but in this particular case, I know that is not confusion on the terms

(02:43:32 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to andrea gail: I don't wanna it's all warm and squishy in there..*S*

(02:44:00) uncollared mind~ says to toy (f): thank you miss

(02:44:01 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to *Badboy* {c}: the vanilla ones were what i was referring to...*S*

(02:44:29) warm woman says to tyme: *s* that just proves my point that we can't truly define WIITWD

(02:44:32) ~angel~ says to *Badboy* {c}: -l- its possible...but its work....any relationship is...-s- and if one isnt willing to put in the effort for that...its gonna fail...bdsm or 'nilla

(02:44:36 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Wraith: i don't like You playing around up there...i have weird dreams when You do that!....*S*

(02:44:55) Asterix says to uncollared mind~: ... yes what you said ~g~ ... Nicely put

(02:45:02) *Badboy* {c} says to Hobbes: ah well I meant r/t....on here yes you do see many failed relationships...both BDSM and vanilla....but then much of what you see is people jumping into the "collar" without thinking about it...

(02:45:09) ~angel~ says to andrea gail: its more subtle rt....but you'd see it there too-l-

(02:45:16) Asterix says to warm woman: WIITWD ?

(02:45:27) Hobbes says to everyone: Ladies and gentlemen....our hour comes to a close...I thank you... each of you for your attention and contributions...

(02:45:33 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Hobbes: I have seen many velcro collars online...it's the fact that no one is really right next to anyone...the responsibility is altered online...is much harder to break off a realtime relationship when the subbie is standing in front of You with a blade in her hand

(02:45:55) warm woman says to andrea gail: what it is that we do

(02:45:57) *Badboy* {c} says to ~angel~: BOTH have to want to do that effort.....

(02:45:59) uncollared mind~ says to Asterix: curtsies

(02:46:08 ®) Wraith's tyme says to Hobbes: for me the Control He has, that i gave Him, that He wanted, that Wwe negotiated and the efforts by the Dom to set scenes, and push limits, the understanding of my needs, without judgment even when they are different from the Dom/mes, the control of all that i offer for control, the freedom of all i do not offer.....

(02:46:15 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to andrea gail: really... i must be fondling the wrong side of your frontal lobe..I'll fix that...*W*

(02:46:21) Hobbes says to everyone: ...please feel free to continue the discussion...I hope you enjoyed it and found it worthwhile...

(02:46:41) uncollared mind~ says to Hobbes: thank you for your preparation and time tonight, Sir. It was lovely.

(02:46:53) ~angel~ says to *Badboy* {c}: I read that and realized that I should of said both...-l-

(02:47:08) Hobbes says to Wraith: I stay the hell away from subbies with blades...~g~...

(02:47:21) *Badboy* {c} says to Hobbes: thanks...well done tonight *S*

(02:47:43) Hobbes says to uncollared mind~: ..you're most welcome...~s~...thank you for taking part...

(02:47:49) *Badboy* {c} says to ~angel~: yea...when one person just gives up it's tough for the other one...oh wait this isn't about Me is it? *L*

(02:47:57) Hobbes says to *Badboy* {c}: Thank you. ~s~

(02:48:07 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Hobbes: I usually do as well.. but the lil minx figured out how to pick the lock on My blade cabinet..*G*

(02:48:11) toy (f) says to Hobbes: wonderful questions.... very thought provoking..... and no... i am not biased...... - smiles -

(02:48:14) ~angel~ says to *Badboy* {c}: blinks-..Bb...its ALL about you -grins- youre the Dtype

(02:48:18) Asterix says to Hobbes: Thanks for the discussion ... and I stay away from anyone with a blade even if they're in the kitchen ~g~

(02:48:26 Signon) Nathan enters The Edge

(02:48:28 ®) Wraith's tyme says to Wraith: *thinks about Your last post to Hobbes*

(02:48:48 ®) ‡ dark muse ‡ says to Hobbes: i'm sorry i missed so much of it Sir .....but from what i've seen the last 30 minutes or so ....it was excellent ... thank You so much ..*hugs*

(02:48:51) Hobbes says to toy (f): ....fibber...kisses the top of your head... thank you...

(02:48:59) ~angel~ says to tyme: all I have to say is...I will pay money for pics of that blade incident -g-

(02:49:03 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Hobbes: Nicely done Hobbes...very thought provoking and got Aall involved

(02:49:09 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Wraith: purrrsss....little to the left Baby...lol

(02:49:09) *Badboy* {c} says to ~angel~: *L* if only I coulda forced her to try... *sighs*

(02:49:14 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to everyone: brb...rti

(02:49:28 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Hobbes: wonderful job Sir....*S*....just as i though

(02:49:28 ®) Wraith's tyme says to Hobbes: thank You Sir for all Your efforts, wonderful Moderating Sir *s*

(02:49:31 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Hobbes: thought even

(02:49:38) Hobbes says to Asterix: Thank you for your input...~s~...I thought you made some important points...

(02:49:59) Havoc says to Hobbes: nice job *S*

(02:50:13) ~angel~ says to andrea gail: by the way...who do you think you're kidding??..-laughs- you've got weird dreams period

(02:50:26) Asterix says to Hobbes: My pleasure... though I have a bad habit of playing devil's advocate ~s~

(02:50:40 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to everyone: Greets Aall I missed while attempting to look like I know what I'm talking about

(02:50:47) Hobbes says to ‡ dark muse ‡: ..~grins and grabs you up in a bear hug~....thank you, beautiful..

(02:50:57) Havoc says to Wraith: good evening *S*

(02:51:06) Hobbes says to Wraith: Thank you...~s~..it was fun...

(02:51:25 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to Havoc: Evening Havoc

(02:51:31) toy (f) says to Wraith: good evening Sir.... - s - .... and if i may say.... t his is my favourite av of yours....

(02:51:32 ®) ‡ dark muse ‡ says to Hobbes: You're welcome Sir .... *s*

(02:51:33) Hobbes says to tyme: Thank you for the opportunity...~s~...

(02:51:44) Nathan says to everyone: *growls* I had about 3 lines of content to add, and the damn thing timed out. Oh well.. for My next treatise.

(02:51:52) Hobbes says to andrea gail: Not to worry..I'm fluent in typonese...~g~...

(02:51:57 ®) Wraith's tyme says to warm woman: on the point you said about it not being define able.... i think you are right as it can be very different for everyone involved, but one thing is very important to me, even if someone does it differently, does not make them wrong, or doing it wrong, just makes them different, which is ok

(02:52:09 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to toy (f): Why thank you toy...I do have a certain passion for sharp toy..er...things...*S*

(02:52:12 ®) ‡ dark muse ‡ says to Nathan: welcome back Sir ..*s*

(02:52:15) *Badboy* {c} says to ‡ dark muse ‡: *waves* hiya lil one

(02:52:18) Hobbes says to Havoc: ..thank you...~s~...

(02:52:35) ~angel~ says to ‡ dark muse ‡: snugs- hiya booful!!

(02:52:44 ®) ‡ dark muse ‡ says to *Badboy* {c}: good evening Sir ...and You made some excellent points as well...*s*

(02:52:45 ®) Wraith's tyme says to Nathan: please feel free to add it now Sir *s*

(02:53:01 ®) ‡ dark muse ‡ says to ~angel~: *hugs* evening angel o mine *s*

(02:53:02) toy (f) says to Wraith: toy (f) i'm told i'm a little.... sharp... at times... - g -

(02:53:26 ®) Wraith{tyme} says to toy (f): I can only imagine..*S*

(02:53:30) *Badboy* {c} says to ‡ dark muse ‡: ah well thank you...I don't claim to know anything but everyone has opinions *L*

(02:54:00) Hobbes says to toy (f): sometimes?...~g~..

(02:54:15) Nathan says to tyme: debating whilst the wine glasses are offered is not the best foot forward *quiet smile* another time..

(02:55:19) toy (f) says to Hobbes: - smiles sweetly - .. you're right..... rarely......

(02:55:28 ®) ~andrea gail~ says to Hobbes: what did i typonese?....lol

(02:55:51) warm woman says to tyme: you're very right dear *s*

(02:55:52) Hobbes says to toy (f): ..no, brat...you’re always sharp...just sharper sometimes than others...

(02:56:20) Hobbes says to andrea gail: I'm old...I can't remember that far back...~g~...

(02:57:02) toy (f) says to Hobbes: i see... you mean sharp as in smart... clever.... quick on the pick up...... right?...... soft kiss on your cheek

(02:57:31) warm woman says to Hobbes: thank You for the inspiring discussion Sir *s*